Rules Changes from Web Builder

Rules discussions and clarifications.
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Councillor
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Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:53 pm

Rules Changes from Web Builder

Post by Councillor »

I've spent most of the afternoon looking at the units in the web builder and I have some observations. If these have been brought up elsewhere, I apologize.

1: Starsprite drones no longer have the Cloud rule that gifted a limited Strafe function to attackers. They also no longer have Scout (which is fantastic) but are these changes intended or accidental?

2: Both the Oppressor and Eradicator have 8 DP now. Seems... excessive. The Eradicator also has E +2, so that's too durable. Trying to kill that in a normal 1500 pt game is too much of a commitment. What's the reasoning behind it being more durable than the PHR type 4's?

3: Hovercraft are not Aerial Transports. This means they are allowed to full move and still embark/disembark. If the "bunny hop" is dead, as implied in another thread, this is less valuable. It seems like a strange exception given the improved drop and shoot quality of the hovercraft. They've also lost the ability to fire and then embark (like the cowards they are) which is consolation but also a strange change to their game play.

4: Strafe rule seems inconsistently applied. Hades is 1 Shot, Strafe-3, while the Oppressor is 4 Shots, Strafe 2. The Strafe rule is "When making a Shooting Action, this weapon can be fired the number of times listed, but each must be fired at units within 2" of each other." This is an error in the Oppressor stat line, I believe. The Overseer's Ion Cradle has translated properly and it's on the same page.

5: Drills and Hovercraft can take Scan actions. Why?

I'm bringing these up in the hopes that a playtester (or playtester-adjacent human) can explain how things came to be. This edition is brand new and the design process feels more opaque than previous releases. Is something missing from the web builder? As it is now the only repository for the unit's statistics, I need to be able to trust it.

What interesting changes have you found while playing around with the army builder?

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Lord Sick
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:07 am

Re: Rules Changes from Web Builder

Post by Lord Sick »

Hi Councillor,

I'm not a play tester (or play tester-adjacent human)
I can share some thoughts on a few points :)

point 2: the reason I think the Eradicator has E+2 is because it was a translation from Jungle Devil she had E+2 (as a Scourge player I love that they have 8 DP makes them seem useable)

point 4. is strafe not a multiplier? like the oppressor can hit 2 units with 4 shots
and the Hades can hit 3 units with 1 shot and the Overseers van hit 2 units with 4 shots?

spacemonkeymafia
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:19 pm

Re: Rules Changes from Web Builder

Post by spacemonkeymafia »

Not sure why Hovercrafts can't take a scan action. They are ground transports and so I see no issue with it. Drills taking it is a little weird but not totally strange.

Hovercrafts getting a full move and able to disembark units is needed as they otherwise were way to slow to do anything. They could cart out Gun Wagons which only worked because Gun Wagons had a great AA range and you didn't need to get them deep up the board. There is a trade off since they can't shoot then embark (as you noted) which hurts a lot on their usability since anyone can hit them across the board and will deal them damage due to low armor. Also, they got nerfed where they now also get a 1+ penalty to their shots when disembarking (which wasn't present before).

In my first v2 game, Hovercrafts were actually worth considering in my army instead of just a Gun Wagon cart. Gun Wagons, however, underperformed which was surprising due to them being so feared in v1 as a strong AA option. Being exposed all the time and the surprise drop and shoot penalty made for them to have a fantastic 36" threat range but they didn't do anything to my PHR opponent. They couldn't bring down any aerial transport, even 1 DP transports. Hull Down and the disembark penalty made things hard to hit and their E6 guns with very few hits led to zero damage in almost every shot volley.

Councillor
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Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:53 pm

Re: Rules Changes from Web Builder

Post by Councillor »

Lord Sick wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:20 am
point 2: the reason I think the Eradicator has E+2 is because it was a translation from Jungle Devil she had E+2 (as a Scourge player I love that they have 8 DP makes them seem useable)

point 4. is strafe not a multiplier? like the oppressor can hit 2 units with 4 shots
and the Hades can hit 3 units with 1 shot and the Overseers van hit 2 units with 4 shots?
Strafe is a multiplier. What I am working around to saying is, according to RAW, the Oppressor gets 8 shots with the Plasma Carbine when at the 9" range. This has to be an error in the builder. Furthermore, combined with the enhanced toughness, drop and shoot, and cheaper Harbingers, I'm thinking 150 points is too cheap. Yes, the model is Large, but not so large that you can't use buildings to screen. The Eradicator is basically a pack of Rapiers that trades one AA weapon for invincibility. Why take Ravagers at all?
spacemonkeymafia wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:52 pm
Not sure why Hovercrafts can't take a scan action. They are ground transports and so I see no issue with it. Drills taking it is a little weird but not totally strange.
By the rules, yeah, Hovercraft and Drills can take scan actions. According to my memory of the thousand and one questions I asked Dave last Gencon, he mentioned the effort to improve APC viability. In my mind, the Scanning rules are meant to do this. Non-APC units being able to scan feels like an unintended oversight. (I feel this goes hand-in-hand with complaints others have had about the way the rules in other sections are written.)

The real issue I have with is that only the Resistance have ground based transports beyond APCs. Is it necessary to allow them to trade spare hovercraft activations to Scan when no one else can? They aren't light on APC equivalents. Drills already have a function (and are now A15) and may as well scan because they can't take another action. Feels like in the attempt to streamline the rules, there were oversights.

As for hovercraft speed and the idea of trade offs, a hovercraft is faster than a Condor or Neptune at deploying and more useful than either during and after. If my numbers are correct, you can get to the center objective buildings on turn one, like every other faction (take THAT Shaltari.) Given that you can take 3 Jacksons in a Kraken now, I'm struggling to see why you'd ever take an infantry Lifthawk.

Getting a penalty to shoot that is less painful is fine, but Resistance alone retains the ability to fire AA on disembark. Gun Wagons were always exposed for a period of time. Giving up Reaction Fire to be "safe" was the trade off. Respectfully, it sounds like you played against the statistically-worst targets for your gun wagons and you didn't roll particularly well. I'd wager you'd have a lot better time with them shooting at Ravens or Gates. Hull Down aircraft is going to be a universal issue for everybody's AA.

FULL STOP. Everything else I'm talking about is minor league compared to what I just found. Wagons are now immune to Critical Hits from the Resilient Rule. WHY

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Lord Sick
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Re: Rules Changes from Web Builder

Post by Lord Sick »

Strafe is a multiplier. What I am working around to saying is, according to RAW, the Oppressor gets 8 shots with the Plasma Carbine when at the 9" range. This has to be an error in the builder. Furthermore, combined with the enhanced toughness, drop and shoot, and cheaper Harbingers, I'm thinking 150 points is too cheap. Yes, the model is Large, but not so large that you can't use buildings to screen. The Eradicator is basically a pack of Rapiers that trades one AA weapon for invincibility. Why take Ravagers at all?
Hmm I need to order some right away :P
I sure these stats will be adjusted to better balance them. That is why they went with the online stats right? I think there are more strange stats issues, but I'm not sure.

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